Home > Uncategorized > Sunday Screening #7: Princess Mononoke

Sunday Screening #7: Princess Mononoke

I can be a bit unrealistic sometimes. I once decided that I would only watch Sixth Sense if it was required watching for a film course. Eventually it was, and I watched it and was let down (this stemmed from the fact that people had ruined the ending for me, which really makes the movie pretty boring (even watching for the ‘clues’ along the way)). But let me tell you this screeners…I SWEAR, if Sunday Screenings turns me into a Anime fan, we’re all going to have to sit down and have a long, long talk. I’m kidding of course (mostly). I do have to say that even with my possibly unfounded dislike of all things anime, the work of Miyazaki has always piqued my interest in the genre. Many compare him to Walt Disney, which is only really bad if they say it in reference to your frozen vs unfrozen physical state. The films of Miyazaki flew quietly under the radar in America until Miramax released an English dubbed version of Princess Mononoke. Since then Miyazaki has gained popularity here, and extended his legacy at home (his films are the only films to have grossed more then Titanic in Japan). I’m actually looking forward to the chance to extend my film knowledge to an area that I have thus far stayed away from.

I wanted to say that this movie would pose an interesting question to us as viewers, as to which language we would watch it in. But it appears that the DVD release does not contain the original Japanese soundtrack with English subtitles, so we will be forced to watch it in English. While I normally will not watch a dubbed film, this time I have no choice (which is weird, because most of the world watches their American produced films dubbed, while I have an aversion to watching their movies dubbed into english). On another note, I have an English dubbed version of City on Fire if anyone’s interested in the film that is rumored to be what Quentin based Reservoir Dogs on.

-Paul

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  1. hatchback
    December 30, 2009 at 11:39 PM

    I feel I have to preface this comment with a disclaimer: I was, for a year of my life, obsessed with all things anime. I loved it.

    Out of that, I got to see Mononoke Hime when I was a lass. I’m so happy we’re screening it this weekend. I’m all for seeing it again and I will tell you, with animation the dubbing is less crippling than a cinephile would normally think. The wonder is truly in the animation and the imagination required to create such a film. I would agree wholeheartedly that, in the vein of Walt Disney, Mononoke makes you question the magic, wonder and enchantment of the world around you.

    Just sayin’.

  2. Brandon
    December 31, 2009 at 12:01 AM

    I watch pretty much everything, anime included. Studio Ghibli is like the more wholesome version of Disney… less selling sex to children. Regardless, Ghibli is responsible for some other fantastic films, notably Grave of the Fireflies. Mononoke did a great job at least allowing Ghibli films into the American arena. Eventually anime will come more into play more, rather than be separated by people that avoid it and people who consume all things anime (regardless of quality).

    If considering additional animation, the work of Satoshi Kon is fantastic. He’s a great contemporary auteur. Check out Paprika and Perfect Blue.

    -bt-

  3. LMM
    January 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

    Hey guys, I’m finally back. Now that the craziness of the holidays is on the back burner till next year, I can get back on track with SS.

    I have to agree with hatchback, I am very excited about Princess Mononoke.
    I grew up on Nausicaa of the Valley of the Winds, thanks to my older brother and his love of all things Asian. This movie was so beautiful to me, yet somehow I missed the films in between Valley and Princess. I’m still working my way backwards while keeping up to date.

    I love Miyazaki films. They are just beautiful, visually and narratively. They have the same themes of respecting nature and doing your part to help, but done so differently it makes you think each time you see a movie.
    I’m well aware of the comparison to Disney, but don’t know if I agree, especially not the newer Disney films. Miyazaki is about what’s around you, what’s bigger than yourself; while I think Disney is about personal growth and achievement. Miyazaki is selfless while Disney is selfish?

    One thing I also love about Miyazaki films is the voice talent in the American versions. I’m a very big film snob when it comes to watching foreign films in the original language, but am okay with the Studio Ghibli films being dubbed. It may be mostly because of lack of access, but I’ve never been bothered by it.
    In most animated films you spend the first few introductions to characters trying to figure out who’s voice it is. They never seem to fit well, and based purely on star power. I don’t feel the same way about Miyazaki films. The voices, while talented and ‘big named’ are never there for star power, and fit the character. I believe it’s this reason that I’m never worried about who’s doing the voices; or maybe I just hold Studio Ghibli on a pedestal.

    • January 7, 2010 at 2:43 PM

      Glad to have you back.

      I can see your point about the comparison of Miyazaki to Disney, and from my admittedly narrow viewpoint I agree with you..but I think that you are maybe looking a little too much into the comparison. From what I understand the comparison is more aimed at the dominance of animated films that each has enjoyed in his time (maybe I’m wrong and they are actually doing a more indepth comparison of their film output).

      I am also averse to watching a dubbed film, although I think you have to consider any animated film dubbed (except maybe the motion capture ones Zemekis has been doing lately). But this movie does pose a good question when it comes to dubbed vs original language. Does anyone think much of the story changed in translation? Or do you think that the original story came out unscathed after the change to english? I did think the voice talent was pretty exceptional. I really though that Billy Bob Thornton was a great choice for his character.

      • LMM
        January 7, 2010 at 3:10 PM

        I was definitely going deeper into the comparison than needed to be, and from what I understand the comparison does come from both Disney and Miyazaki dominating the animation culture in their respected cultures.

        You bring up a great point about the dubbed animated films. I believe that you lose a lot when you translate a live-action film into English. All actors (or at least good actors) include both their voice and movement into a character, and when you change one aspect of that, you change the character.

        However, with animation, not even the original talent are in control of the movement. I’m aware that the trend of basing the movement on screen with the actors reads is wildly used, but it’s still not the same as direct action.

        I don’t believe this story, or any Miyazaki films, has lost translation in the dubbed versions.

        • January 7, 2010 at 4:44 PM

          In response to how much you lose in the dubbing, I’d argue that you still lose quite a bit. Voice acting is a different beast than film and stage acting. It’s really easy to get wrong, which I feel many of the voice cast in Mononoke did. Also, from what I read, there was a great deal of dialogue changing to make it more naturalistic in English, which can severely alter tone and message. We’ve all seen what happens when simple things like signs are mistranslated: http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/42376.
          (I know more care is taken for film translations, I just wanted to link to funny signs.)

          • LMM
            January 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM

            I was not aware of the changes in dialogue, so that changes things.

            Voice talent is a different beast, but I like to think that if they are already respected actors, they are able to do a good job with voiceovers. Granted, this also leaves room for people like Nicolas Cage who can’t do either, yet is popping up in every other movie these days, and would be a horrible voice actor.

          • January 8, 2010 at 3:21 PM

            And lest we forget http://iconsoffright.com/news/2009/03/let_the_wrong_subtitles_in_to.html which is a really good example of some of the changes in translation that can drastically alter a film.

            Not to mention, why did they pay to have the movie re-translated for the DVD and not just use the original subtitle translation? Did someone have a brother who needed a new translating gig?

          • January 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM

            The Let the Right One subtitle comparison is pretty eye-opening. I’m torn between being annoyed and just being amused because the side-by-side comparisons are so funny. Going from “Forgive me” to “Sorry”? Come on.

  4. January 3, 2010 at 5:15 PM

    Much like Paul, Anime in general is something I just don’t get. The animation style is, well, foreign to me. That said, Miyazaki intrigues me because he is universally praised. Not just one film, but Every. Single. One. So I feel like I’m missing out on something special. It was with a very optimistic attitude that I went into watching Princess Mononoke. I expected some adjustment to the animation, but was hoping the story would take me away (spirit me away? oh, god, I’m sorry for that…).

    Anyway, I was quite disheartened to discover that that did not happen for me. As anticipated, there was something about the animation that put me off, though I can’t seem to put my finger on it. While I haven’t seen The Fantastic Mr. Fox yet, it’s that same sort of lack of fluidity in the animation. Add to that the background, which is definitely pretty, but pretty lifeless, and I just never got my bearings.

    Another issue is that the images, even beyond the Japanese characters, and story are so tied into Japanese culture that it was impossible for me to get over the English accents coming out of their mouths. Worse still was when Billy Bob Thornton’s voice popped up. Then there was the discrepancy between the voice actor’s OVERacting (Jada Pinkett Smith, Claire Danes, even voice actor John DiMaggio) and UNDERacting (Minnie Driver), that the overall effect took me completely out of the story. It’s not like the actor’s were always given a ton to work with, either. I don’t think I could count all of the unnecessary expository snippets spouted by characters that the viewers could easily discern visually.

    With the story being so complex, my inability to get wrapped up in it really hurt the experience. I just wanted the film to end, but it kept going. For me, the fantastical nature of the film let them go further and further with the scenarios instead of reigning the story into something tighter.

    I couldn’t really understand why the animals hated humans so much when the animals had so many (emotional) traits. Maybe that was the point, but I struggled to overcome this aspect of the film.

    The demon arm on Ashitaka never really felt like a threat to his life. And there was just too much black and white in the film. Ashitaka is always good. The rest of the humans are always destructive. The animals all hate every human. And no one will listen to anyone else. Well, until the last five minutes, at least.

    The animation is definitely interesting and at times stunning, and one thing I really enjoyed was the decapitating arrow. I was pretty surprised by that. Overall, though, I was pretty disappointed in my experience with Princess Mononoke. I’m not giving up on Miyazaki, but I’ve lost a little enthusiasm for the unknown.

    • January 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM

      Nice Miyazaki pun there. Don’t apologize for it.

      The animation wasn’t something that I necessarily liked, but I don’t think I had the same problem with it that you did (and I also look forward to someday soon seeing Mr. Fox). Most of my problems with the film were more story based. I didn’t feel there was much of a sense of urgency or purpose driving the characters (mainly Ashitaka). Maybe I’ve been too brainwashed by the Disney animated films fish out of water type stories, but he just seemed to be going for a leisurely stroll as the demon further infected his body.

      I too felt that I wanted the film to end. The story just seemed to amble on without much really happening. I might have missed it, but I didn’t really understand Billy Bob’s motivation for wanting the Nightwalkers head, which is a pretty big plot point. I felt the movie could have been MUCH tighter then it was.

      The weird thing too was that Ashitaka was more just the peacemaker, which didn’t make sense. He wasn’t on the side of Nature, or technology (well, until then end when he says he wants to live in Technology, but visit Mononoke in Nature when he can).

      There was quite a but of violence, between beheading-arrow and people losing limbs.

      • January 7, 2010 at 4:50 PM

        I thought Ashitaka was a pretty weak lead. I think it’s because he didn’t have a particular motive other than “we must all live together in peace.”

        • January 10, 2010 at 5:00 PM

          At the risk of sounding like an apologist, I think Ashitaka was envisioned as an archetypal heroic character, inspired from the heroes of traditional mythology. By contemporary standards of storytelling, he does seem like a blank slate, but I think he’s supposed to represent an ideal, a concept of good, that fits right into the mythological/folktale feel of the story. He was determined to do the right thing in whatever situation he found himself in, and to me that was enough motivation for the character.

          I actually didn’t want to film to end (how’s that for an opposite reaction?!). I really just fell for the world that Miyazaki created. I loved the beast/god characters especially. I thought plenty was happening; so much of it was unexpected, and there were plenty of factions within the overall conflict to keep things multilayered.

          Paul, I believe Jigo wanted to give the head of the forest god to the Emperor of Japan, which was said to make one immortal. So he was basically just working for the emperor.

          • January 11, 2010 at 9:47 AM

            I’m glad there isn’t an Emperor around here for people to do devious things in honor of. Why is it that Emperors always end up with the most evil of followers?

            Another question, what happened to Ashitaka’s people? Did he just decide he didn’t like them anymore, and he wasn’t going back? You’d think he would have reunited himself with his peeps.

          • LMM
            January 11, 2010 at 9:59 AM

            I was satisfied with this movie, and loved the contrasts between the two groups. Granted, this theme has been done a lot, but I think this was a beautiful representation.

            To comment on Paul below, I got the impression that he would of visited his peeps from time to time.

  5. LMM
    January 4, 2010 at 9:27 AM

    Interesting.
    I guess with growing up with Asian culture (anime and kung fu films thanks to my brother) it was easy for me to switch to the cultural aspect of Miyazaki films. His films are very cultural, and all about nature and human relationships.

    I would love for you to see more, like “…Valley of the Winds” and “Spirited Away”, but keep in mind that those elements will be there and be strong.

    I can see where you’re coming from with the voice talent. His other films, from what I remember, are so heavily Hollywood voices. I think that since this was the big ‘break’ into mainstream American culture they went a little too far with the A-list talent. I’ll have to look out for that on the next viewing.

    I personally love the animation. It is a bit out there, but they can do that with animation. I also like how they are staying with the hand drawings. From what I understand, and correct me if I’m wrong, but they still do primarily hand drawings, but also computer. It’s that classic art form that makes it seem more real to me.

    • January 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM

      I forgot to welcome you back in my above post, LMM! It’s good to hear from you again!

      I’m still interested in checking out more Miyazaki. I didn’t have issues with the cultural issues, really. It was more the juxtaposition of the clearly Japanese culture with the clearly American (or more generally native English speaking) accents. I feel that it would have gone over much better with the original voice work. Plus, it’s easier for me to take the simplified translations if I’m just reading it instead of hearing actors say it. It would be like taking a Kurosawa (whom I really love) film and dubbing it. It doesn’t work. I guess I’m kind of snobby about dubbing.

      I thought the animation had elements of greatness and I do really like that they still focus on hand drawings. It just seemed a little clunky at times.

      Also, since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about these films, is Miyazaki considered Anime? I get the feeling that he isn’t, but I could be way off base.

      • LMM
        January 4, 2010 at 5:00 PM

        Yes, it’s good to be back on track. Holidays are always full of craziness.

        I definitely see you’re point about the dubbing. I, too, only watch foreign films in their appropriate language. However, I will not focus too much on that with these films. I still love them.

        I consider him anime, and I think he is wildly considered anime as well.
        However, these are anime films in the sense they are animation. They don’t have the look or techniques that what most consider anime to have; like the big eyes, big expressions, and crazy content. These films aren’t like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z. Similar to cartoon animation to computer animation to stop motion animation.

        At least, that’s my interpretation.

        • January 4, 2010 at 8:32 PM

          That was my impression, but I wasn’t sure if the was anime as a broad descriptor and ANIME as a genre. Thanks for clearing it up.

          • LMM
            January 5, 2010 at 11:03 AM

            Glad I could help.

  6. January 6, 2010 at 10:31 PM

    Finally got around to watching this. I’ve only recently explored anime, and it mostly consists of Miyazaki films, but I’m very glad I have. I completely agree with LMM’s comments. I’d seen only Spirited Away and Howl’s Moving Castle, and thoroughly enjoyed both.

    Princess Mononoke I felt was more dissimilar to these other two in terms of content and the degree of violence, but I also very much enjoyed it because it shares with the others a multifaceted, surprising narrative, fascinating and emotionally compelling characters, and a stunningly creative imagination obviously influenced by traditional Japanese culture and mythology. These films help show how animation is truly a distinct art form, and how Miyazaki is one of the world’s most gifted storytellers.

    I also love the emphasis on naturalism and compassion in his films. It’s refreshing and puts me in a more peaceful state of mind. I also really appreciated the great realistic details within the animation style. Like Spirited Away and Howl’s Moving Castle, Princess Mononoke is a grand feast for the eyes and is endlessly surprising visually.

    There’s also some terrifying and unsettling imagery (the boar god turned into a demon, the giant nightwalker and approaching sludge toward the end) and rather dark and tragic subject matter (the various many dead and mortally wounded gods and animals, the dying forest). The forest god and how it was portrayed (in complete silence) was awesome.

    I didn’t find the characters to be too black-and-white; the motivations of the more antagonistic characters were always explained and often understandable, and their allegiances and relationships with Ashitaka shifted or at least wavered during the course of the story. Actually, what I especially like about Miyazaki films is the fact he makes such prominent use of ambiguity and complexity in his stories, yet they narrative is always clear and strong. Unfortunately, I watched the dubbed version of Princess Mononoke as well, and I agree with Nate that the English voice acting was uneven.

    Nate, when you go for anime/Miyazaki again, I’d highly recommend Spirited Away. I think it’s brilliant, and there is definitely a lack of clearly defined good and evil characters in that one. Also, if you watch the dubbed version, the English voice acting is better.

    • January 7, 2010 at 4:56 PM

      I think one of my issues with Mononoke is it didn’t seem fantastical enough. The colors seemed kind of muted, even though it’s a colorful movie. They just seemed like earth tones. Even the demon bore and the giant nightwalker confounded me more than scared or awed me. The forest God gave me the sense of Bambi’s father instead of anything supernatural.

      I hope that Mononoke is an aberration for me in the oeuvre of Miyazaki.

      • LMM
        January 8, 2010 at 9:50 AM

        Mononoke is darker than his other films, yet I haven’t really paid attention to it. I like to think that this is because the story is darker.

        While I still love this movie, I’m beginning to realize how dark and unhappy this movie is. It’s full of dread, and brings you down until the very end when things are sort of worked out.

        Valley of the Winds has it’s moment of dread during the climax as well, but then there’s this huge moment of hope and glory. You feel excited about what’s going to happy after the film is done. I don’t think you get that with Mononoke.

        • January 10, 2010 at 5:04 PM

          I agree that the movie has a fairly dark and downbeat tone until the end (I liked that aspect though). That’s one thing that sets it apart from Spirited Away and Howl’s Moving Castle, since while those two do have their share of darker moments, overall they are much less violent and more family-friendly. I definitely need to see other Miyazaki films now, like his other ones.

          • January 10, 2010 at 5:05 PM

            That is to say, I need to see his OLDER ones. Damn typing errors.

          • LMM
            January 10, 2010 at 5:15 PM

            I would definitely recommend his first, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Winds. It’s my favorite, and just a beautiful story.

          • January 11, 2010 at 12:33 PM

            Thanks for the recommendation. That’ll be the next Miyazaki film I check out.

  7. January 7, 2010 at 2:07 PM

    After a busy week and weekend I made my first attempt at Mononoke on Sunday night. I got halfway in before I was sleeping. Now I don’t want to blame the movie for putting me to sleep, as I don’t feel that it did. Not that I liked the film. Last night I was able to start anew with the film and watched the entirety of it (before sending it back to Netflix this morning so I can have them send me this Sunday’s film Weekend).

    I made it fairly obvious in my introduction to the film that I was not a fan of Anime. I feel that I gave Princess Mononoke a fair shot to wow me, but the movie did not. I felt that the story was overly preachy, and had a lot of holes. I did like the way that technology vs nature was shown, and I agree with the environmentalist aspects of the story. I feel that if I had a greater understanding of the Japanese culture, more of the story would have been enjoyable for me, but as someone who doesn’t really know that much about the culture, I felt a bit lost. The animation was fine, but I’m not really much of a fan of any animation.

    Since I’m coming a bit late to the conversation, I will do more responding to points in comments to share my thoughts.

  8. LMM
    January 7, 2010 at 3:18 PM

    Out of all the Miyazaki films that I have seen, I think this film has the most unsettling imagery. Maybe that is why the story came off as preachy.

    For example, the movie Millions by Danny Boyle. I won’t go too much into detail in case there are some that haven’t seen it (though you should, it’s brilliant!).
    The main character in the film knows all there needs to know about the Christian saints; he goes to Christian school, and tries to live his life by those teachings. Even though there are multiple Christian elements, I never felt like I was being force feed Christianity (or Catholicism, but I see cause I grew up Catholic). It was worked into the story, and you didn’t feel it was put there to make a point.

    I can see where the violence might have moved the story more in the realm of preachy.
    Not to say that is why, but it’s something that crossed my mind, since his other films are also about the balance of nature and urban cultures.

    Of course, this could make no sense other than in my head.

  9. January 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM

    I think the difference for me is that while Millions has a lot going on for the boy, I feel Ashitaka only ever talks about peace and how the two sides need to live together, but it’s all on the nose. Instead of letting the audience figure it out for themselves, the film tells them exactly what is happening.

    • LMM
      January 8, 2010 at 9:53 AM

      That is very true.
      Of course, this all make me wonder if that was the intention of the original script (from a previous post about changing dialogue for English viewers).

      It would be interesting to see if they had to do the same for the films after Mononoke. Spirited Away, Howl’s Moving Castle and Ponyo all got American releases and publicity, it wasn’t as big or in your face as Mononoke.
      Anyone know where I can search for that?

      • January 10, 2010 at 5:10 PM

        LMM, as far as I know, it may just take a combination of random searching or looking at Miyazaki/anime fan sites to find that kind of info.

        I did come across this Web site, though, which talks about some changes in the English language version of Spirited Away. Go to the section that’s titled “Differences between the Japanese and English vers.”

        http://haku.winglica.com/spirited_away_extras.php

        • LMM
          January 10, 2010 at 5:15 PM

          Thanks, I will check it out.

  10. January 10, 2010 at 9:27 PM

    johnwm1 :

    The Let the Right One subtitle comparison is pretty eye-opening. I’m torn between being annoyed and just being amused because the side-by-side comparisons are so funny. Going from “Forgive me” to “Sorry”? Come on.

    I just rewatched Let the Right One In last night and it’s still amazing, but I feel bad for people who haven’t had the chance to experience the original. It sounds like the edition with new subtitles will only come out when stock of the initial release runs out. Very disappointing.

  11. LMM
    January 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM

    I want to say that I saw the right version of the movie, but I have no idea. I know that I saw it before all of this information was out about two versions…actually, that probably means I didn’t see the right version. Dammit. I really love that movie.

    • January 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM

      Did you see it in a theater? I know all the film prints had the first/correct translations. I think there is a way to look at the DVD case and see which version it is (much like the Back to the Future DVD set with an incorrectly framed part 2).

      On the topic of Let the Right One In, check out this article about the cinematography of that film. Interesting stuff. http://fxrant.blogspot.com/2009/11/cinematography-of-let-right-one-in-part.html

      • LMM
        January 11, 2010 at 10:02 AM

        Yes, I saw it first run in the theaters, Alamo Drafthouse in Austin. I’m assuming based on I saw it at the Drafthouse and in Austin (though, both of those don’t guarantee anything).

        It is on my purchase list, so I will make sure to check the box.

        Thanks for the article. I love having reading material at work.

        • January 11, 2010 at 10:16 AM

          I love being in Austin. The Alamo is such a treasure. I got to rub it in to Nate a little last week when he posted an interview from the Director of Monster Squad about the 20th anniversary of the movie, which I pointed out was done here in Austin (at the Drafthouse). All the prints were the correct subtitles, that’s what’s so weird, is that they made film prints, and then got the film re-translated and re-subtitled. So someone got paid to translate the film a second time.

          • January 11, 2010 at 2:24 PM

            Yeah, but it’s in Texas…

  12. LMM
    January 11, 2010 at 10:55 AM

    I love living in Austin as well. It’s such a great city, so much to do. The Drafthouse is icing on the cake. There are many movies that I will only see there. Not to mention their midnight screenings. It’s so nice to be among other enthusiasts at certain screenings (ie: Harry Potter).

    That’s very weird that there are two versions. I wonder if it’s because it did better than expected, so to make it more appealing to the masses they changed it? It seems to be a theme among foreign films. Which I can understand, and I’m glad that the masses are seeing these movies, expanding their knowledge and range of films, yet it sort of sucks for the film snobs like us who want to see it in it’s original content.
    Give and take?

    • January 11, 2010 at 2:27 PM

      As far as the Let the Right One in subtitles go, I got the impression that it’s not all that uncommon for them to change things, even though it is stupid. Also, in Paul’s original Let the Right One In link, there was and update (though who knows how current or relevant it is) that sounded like they were going to keep the rejiggered subtitle discs out until the stock runs low, then replace them, but it didn’t sound like something that was going to happen fast. Especially if so many people are holding off to by the version with the original subtitles. Sounds like greed to me.

  13. LMM
    January 11, 2010 at 2:33 PM

    ncapp24 :
    Yeah, but it’s in Texas…

    But we’re our own Blue Island! You aren’t really in Texas when you’re in Austin.

  14. LMM
    January 11, 2010 at 2:34 PM

    johnwm1 :
    Thanks for the recommendation. That’ll be the next Miyazaki film I check out.

    Can’t wait to hear what you think!

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